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Free World: The book
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Timothy Garton Ash
Do American and European values differ?
| Nearly four out of five Europeans asked in one poll said they thought Americans and Europeans have different values. Almost as many Americans agreed. But the Inglehart Values Map (see p.257 of Free World) shows a much more complex picture. Do you think we have different values? If so, what’s the biggest difference? |  |
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Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Ross Gurung in France wrote: "When the USA takes pain
to solve the rift between Israel and Palestine every dammed problem of
the Muslim world would dissolve into peace and harmony. Bin Laden and
his clique would disappear with their El-Qaeda inside their turbans for
good. Anti-Semitism in France and anywhere on this globe is neither understandable
nor tolerable but it is the direct cause and effect of what happens between
the two protagonists, Israel and Palestine after the proclamation of 2nd
Intifada, when Sharon deliberately provoked his foes by paying an express
visit to one of the shrines of east Jerusalem."
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That's completely, totally, utterly, absolutely, spectacularly wrong.
In fact, it's Rubbish.
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FIRST: it's not the responsibility of the United States to "take
pain to solve the rift between Israel and Palestine". That's not
the responsibility of the United states. It's the responsibility of the
warring parties themselves to resolve their differences, with the aid
of mediation, if such mediation is desired, offered and accepted. If one
or both of the warring parties don't want to resolve their differences
peacefully, that's their business. It's not the "duty" or responsibility
of the United States to bang the warring parties' heads together or try
to force them to make nice-nice. If they want to continue to try to kill
each other, that's their business, not ours.
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SECOND: The problems of the Muslim world are not going to "dissolve
into peace and harmony" if and when the Arabs and Israelis ever secure
a lasting peace with each other. And anybody who actually, seriously thinks
the Muslim world's problems would actually disappear upon the settlement
of the Arab/Israeli conflict has probably been smoking some seriously
potent hashish, or else belongs in a mental hospital. The Arab/Israeli
conflict is not the source of the Muslim world's problems. It (the Arab/Israeli
conflict) is a sideshow. It's a convenient distraction. Israel's existence
has always served as a convenient whipping boy for the so-called "Arab
masses". The Muslim world's problems are what they have always been.
Those problems existed long before Israel's creation and will continue
long after any peace settlement. Those problems begin and end with the
so-called "governments" of the Muslim world, all of which rightfully
belong in jail for one reason or another. They range from corrupt kleptocracies
and dissolute oligarchies to murderous fanatical theocracies. Every single
one of them is a dictatorship of one stripe or another. Every single one
of them relies on force and terror to stay in power. Not a single one
of them dares to allow democracy. Not a single one of them trusts its
citizens enough to allow them the vote. The sole, single exception? Iraq,
whose people defied terrorist threats and democratically elected their
government.
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THIRD: When the Europeans spout gibberish phrases like "When the
USA takes pain to solve the rift between Israel and Palestine", what
they really mean is "when the USA exerts such enormous pressure on
Israel, that the Israelis ultimately cave in and acquiesce in the destruction
of their own nation". That ain't going to happen, ever. Get used
to it. Israel's national interests are America's national interests. And
Israel's safety and security is our paramount concern.
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FOURTH: Bin Laden and his clique are not going to "disappear with
their El-Qaeda inside their turbans for good", ever, regardless of
whether there is a Middle East peace settlement or not. They're not going
to stop committing terrorist atrocities until they're caught, or killed.
Apparently you haven't been paying attention to what Bin-Laden's and Al-Qaeda's
stated goals are. Bin-Laden doesn't want a "Middle East peace agreement".
He doesn't want a "diplomatic settlement". He doesn't want a
"two-state solution". He wants to utterly annihilate one of
those states - the Jewish one. He wants to wipe Israel off the map of
the Middle East. He wants to "ethnically cleanse" the Middle
East of all Jews. And how do we know all this? Because he said so, in
his videos. If you had ever bothered actually listening to what he was
saying, you'd understand that.
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FIFTH: Anti-Semitism in France and anywhere on this globe is neither the
"direct cause" nor the "effect" of "what happens
between the two protagonists, Israel and Palestine". Anti-semitism
has been around in France and in Europe in general for almost 1,000 years
or so. It's not new. Anti-semitism in Europe throughout the ages was the
cause of accusations that Jews "practiced ritual murder of Christian
children" (beginning around the time of the First Crusade in 1095),
the expulsion of Jews from Spain (in 1492) and other such displays of
European "civilized behavior". By contrast, Israel as a Nation
has only existed since 1948. That's only 57 years, from 1948 to 2005.
If you're having trouble with the math,here's how it works: anti-semitism
in Europe was in full swing for about 943 years before the State of Israel
was even founded.
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SIXTH: Ariel Sharon did not "cause" the so-called "2nd
Intifada", nor did he ever "deliberately provoke his foes by
paying an express visit to one of the shrines of east Jerusalem".
That's typical left-wing BS. For your information, the shrine which Ariel
Sharon visited is called the Temple Mount. And it's a site that is held
sacred by Jews. It's the site where the Jewish Temple built by Solomon
once stood. (Hence the name, Temple Mount). Also, for your information,
Jews have a right to visit that holy shrine. And Ariel Sharon is a Jew.
Therefore, Ariel Sharon has every bit as much of a right to visit the
Temple Mount site as any other Jew. He has every right to actively assert
and exercise his right as a Jew to visit and pray at a Jewish shrine.
Sharon has every right to visit a Jewish shrine on the Temple Mount, and
the Palestinians have utterly no "right" whatsoever to do anything
at all about it. And if the Palestinians don't like that, That's Just
Too Damn Bad For The Palestinians. They need to Get Over It.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Mike in London wrote: "Stalin was an Orthodox Christian,
but kept it quiet as Communism tends to see religion as a tool of repression."
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That's because Communism itself is the most brutal of oppressors. Communism
sees religion as a rival for the hearts, minds and affections of the people.
Hence the frightful brutality unleashed by Stalin, particularly against
Orthodox Christians in Ukraine. The carnage unleashed there by Stalin's
fanatrics rival the Holocaust in their sheer depravity and horror. To
quote an account:
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THE UKRAINIAN HOLOCAUST OF 1932-33 http://www.orthodox-christian-comment.co.uk
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Michel Bastian wrote: "You don´t go to southern
states very often, do you? Believe me, you don´t want to know what
they think about Washington sometimes ;-). That´s why they voted
for Bush. He´s one of them (weelll, sort of at least ;-))."
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I spent 7 months in South Carolina on a business contract a few years
back. And yes, I know what they think of the federal government sometimes
;-) But Bush isn't really a Southerner, because Texas isn't really considered
to be part of the South. But folks down south like Bush's "small-government-is-better"
philosophy ;-) That's why they elected Pres. Ronald Reagan, too ;-)
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Michel Bastian wrote: "One thing they tend to forget
though: globalization. It´s going to creep up on you, slowly at
first, and ever faster proportionally to technological advancement. Whether
you want it or not, the economy is getting more globalized by the minute
due to better transport and communication (case in point: this site where
I´m discussing things with people from all around the globe; wouldn´t
have been possible just thirty years ago)."
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Oh, I haven't forgotten globalization. U.S. business discovered globalization
almost a decade ago, and although it gets less discussion today than it
did in the late-1990s it hasn't gone away. If anything, the U.S. is probably
better prepared to face and deal with globalization than other countries--
and particularly better prepared than the ossified economies of Europe.
Yes, yes, I know I'm focusing on the economic aspects of globalization
rather than on potential military implications. There's a reason for this:
while globalization may have wide-ranging economic and potentially political
effects, it will never cause the demise of the concept of the Nation-state,
in my opinion. Free-trade agreements and increasingly integrated markets
have not eliminated the societal differences between, say, the USA and
Canada, nor have they eliminated the national Sense Of 'Self' inherent
in independent nations like Canada and the U.S.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
INDIA BEATING EUROPE TO TOP
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Michel Bastian wrote: "Right, I can already hear the
almoravid cavalry riding for Granada."
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Did you hear the sound of Al-Qaeda terror-bombs going off in Madrid?
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Michel Bastian wrote: "However, as many americans, you completely
misread what happened in Spain. It had nothing to do with "cowtowing"
to Al Quaida."
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Well, "you" might think that. And "the Spanish people"
might think that. Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter what you think,
or what the Spanish people think. And the reason for that is, what really
matters is what Al-Qaeda thinks. And as far as Al-Qaeda is concerned,
they won a great victory by setting off terror-bombs in Madrid. They've
already openly said so. They're already crowing about how they sacrificed
a mere 19 or so "martyrs" and toppled a government that was
friendly to the United States and hostile to Al-Qaeda. As far as they're
concerned, the Spanish elections validated their belief that Terrorism
is an extremely successful means toward achieving their goal of establishing
a worldwide Islamic state, country by country. As far as they're concerned,
the Spanish election proved to Al-Qaeda that terrorism Works. Deny it
all you want, play the semantics game, claim that "the Spaniards
were voting 'against' a government that lied to them, they weren't voting
'in favor' of Al-Qaeda". They won't believe you. Actions speak louder
than words.
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Michel Bastian wrote: "That´s the difference between the spaniards
and the US: when a spanish PM lies to them, they chuck him out, when a
US president lies to his people, they reelect him."
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Oh, so now you claim that you can 'prove' that Bush lied? Why don't you
prove it? Or don't you have any evidence? Been taking lessons at the Michael
Moore School Of 'Crock'-U-Mentary Journalism?
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Antti Vainio in Finland wrote: "I was more like thinking
about parents with kids. Anybody can just die anytime there and in the
final game, it doesn't really matter if it's a trigger happy American
or a mad jihadist from some suburb of London who blows himself up and
the street next to him."
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In that case, it's interesting and highly enlightening that you choose
to condemn our noble and valiant soldiers who are bringing democracy to
a nation long enslaved under a dictatorship, but you don't seem to offer
any condemnation for the jihadis who (unlike U.S.troops) deliberately
target and go out of their way to murder civilians. Says a lot about you,
it does.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Mike in London wrote: "John Locke wrote extensively
on political philosophy, and laid the philosophical groundwork for both
the British and American constitutions: you are being needlessly pedantic.
The ideas contained in the American constitution are clearly attributable
to Locke."
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"Some", not all, of the ideas contained in the U.S. Constitution
were inspired by the views of John Locke, although the men who wrote the
U.S. Constitution were not merely clones of Locke.
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John Locke's imagination had a much darker side, though, which you fail
to mention.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Mike in London wrote: "Did you just ignore the bit
I wrote about the Nazi slogan of 'Cooking, Children, Church'? Or the 'God
Is With Us' belt- buckles?"
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No, I asked you to provide proof of your claims and statements, and you
failed to do so. You can write anything you want, it doesn't mean I have
to meekly accept it.
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Mike in London wrote: "This is absolute, verified historical fact,
and you are simply making things up to refute it because you don't like
it."
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It wasn't "absolutely, verified" by You. If it's "absolute,
verified historical fact", then you should have no trouble at all
proving your statements with supporting evidence, links, etc. Otherwise,
it's merely further evidence of your none-too-subtle hatred of religion
in general and Christianity in particular.
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Mike in London wrote: "As regards your assertion that Communism does
not accommodate religion because it is 'jealous' of it: you are again
simply making things up. Communism is a materialist philosophy, thus religion
is necessarily alien to it."
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No, again I am simply speaking the Truth, one which you find inconvenient
and contrary to your philosophy, therefore you have to try to discredit
it. Communism not only was not a "materialist philosophy", it
was an ANTI-materialist philosophy that continually tried to tar Capitalism
with the charges of "greed", "vice", "materialism",
etc. That's why Communism's first victims were property-owners: landlords,
farmers, people who stubbornly clung to the idea of Individual Wealth
instead of meekly surrendering all they had to the Kollective.
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Mike in London wrote: "Perhaps you could also let Stalin's biographers
know they are wrong about his stance on religion."
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Perhaps you could also spend some time studying how many of Stalin's worst
massacres of innocents were specifically directed at Orthodox Christians,
particularly in Ukraine.
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Mike in London wrote: "As for your comments about euthanasia: please
stop making things up to try and support your arguments, it is pointless
and obstructive. The Nazis did not execute the disabled for reasons of
mercy...."
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Well, Mike, I'm not making anything up. You can choose not to believe
that, and that's your right, but the facts remain the facts. You can claim
that the Nazis didn't execute the disabled for reasons of mercy, but the
Nazis certainly claimed in their dissertations to their own german people
that they were indeed "putting such unfit people out of their misery".
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Mike in London wrote: "...or perhaps you are suggesting that Italians
are so morally bankrupt that they wish simply to murder their own parents
and children?"
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I have your answer right here, Mike.
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HOSPITAL PERFORMS EUTHANASIA ON INFANTS
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AMSTERDAM ˜ A hospital in the Netherlands ˜ the first nation
to permit euthanasia ˜ has proposed guidelines for mercy killings
of terminally ill newborns and then made a startling revelation: It already
has begun carrying out such procedures, which include administering a
lethal dose of sedatives.
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The announcement by the Groningen Academic Hospital came amid a growing
discussion in the Netherlands on whether to legalize euthanasia on people
who are incapable of deciding for themselves.
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In August, the main Dutch doctors' association KNMG urged the Health Ministry
to create an independent board to review euthanasia cases for terminally
ill people "with no free will," including children, the severely
mentally retarded and people left in irreversible comas after accidents.
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http://washingtontimes.com/world/20041130-100130-5165r.htm
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Mike in London wrote: "Phil Karasick wrote: 'In my
view, morality does derive from religion and from basic religious values'.
I feel this is a misconception which seems increasingly prevalent in the
USA. Look at it this way: if you do not know it is wrong to steal, rape,
murder etc. without reference to the Bible you are exhibiting the symptoms
of a psychopath. The fact is the human race could not have survived this
long without a basic innate morality- instinctive behaviour essential
to our survival as a social animal, just as a pride of lions will not
devour each other once hunger sets in."
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On the contrary, it is the Bible which stresses moral absolutes such the
ideas that it is morally wrong to steal, morally wrong to rape, morally
wrong to murder, etc. It is those who suggest that life is "more
complicated than mere black-and-white views" and who take the position
of moral relativism, who suggest that "stealing isn't 'wrong' if
you are hungry and 'need' to steal to survive", etc. The human race
does not have any basic innate morality, other than to survive. In that,
the human race is no different from any other form of higher or lower
form of intelligent life. The only behavior that is 'instinctive' is that
of doing whatever is necessary to survive. The proof of this is in the
millions of examples throughout human history of human beings reduced
to doing -- and, ultimately, willingly doing -- horrific deeds that they
would otherwise have renounced if their own survival were not at stake
at the time. Slaves in Roman arenas fought each other to the death, killed
their own friends, because to refuse to do so would have meant being put
to death, and they wanted to survive a little longer. Men fleeing in terror
from sinking ships have ignored social customs, shoved women aside, stepped
over children in their panic to be first into lifeboats (and thus more
likely to survive). People suffering from hunger have eaten the bodies
of their dead friends. Starving Soviet prisoners in POW camps killed each
other for crusts of bread, for clothes.
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There is no "innate morality", because "morality"
is not an instinctive behavior -- it's a Learned behavior and one which
must be taught and instilled in Humans. The only innate, instinctive behavior
is the will to Survive. And, as the previous examples demonstrate, human
beings will go to almost any length and commit any act in order to survive.
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Incidentally, lions in the wild do resort to killing each other when they
get hungry enough, and female lions have been often known to kill and
devour their own cubs. They don't have any "innate morality",
either.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Michel Bastian wrote: "God, Phil, do something against
your adrenaline level, will you. And cut back on the coffee, man. You´re
ranting again." Well, Michel, you can refer to it as 'ranting' if
you wish. That's your right. I simply asked the individual in question
to provide proof of his claims, or else withdraw them.
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Michel Bastian wrote: "Right, the whole Iraq war was just an 'unfortunate
accident'. Yeah, right, as I said, the US invaded Iraq totally by accident.
It´s a question of responsibility Phil. You know that word, do you?
Your government is responsible for these deaths, even if they didn´t
actually personally kill those people. Period."
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No, Michel. No. Unless my government or representatives of my government
(my country's troops) not only actually, personally killed those people,
but furthermore did so with deliberate intent, then NO, they're NOT responsible
for those deaths. Period.
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Michel Bastian wrote: "You can write dozens of rants to justify all
this, you can go on forever believing that Bush is actually the next best
thing to Jesus Christ for all I care. You´re wrong."
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I don't recall ever suggesting that Bush is the next best thing to Jesus
Christ. Kindly provide the reference if you think I have done so. And
it appears very much to me that you, not me, are doing the renting here.
Whether there were actually WMDs in Iraq, or whether Saddam merely wanted
the rest of the world and especially Iran to 'think' he had WMDs, isn't
relevent. He needed to Go Away. And now he will. Bush's decision to invade
was right and correct.
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Michel Bastian wrote: "Instead, he keeps on feeding the public nonsense
about him being the saviour of democracy in the middle east. You want
me to respect him for that? Dream on."
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I don't really care whether you respect him for that. And I doubt whether
Bush cares whether you respect him for that, either. History will be the
judge of his actions. And in 20 years or so, if Iraq is by that time a
flourishing democracy whose leaders are peaceably elected according to
rule of law, perhaps you'll have a different opinion of Bush's decision.
But somehow I personally doubt that you'd ever publicly admit that maybe
you were wrong.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Michel Bastian wrote: (a) "How often´s Seattle
been hit by terrorist attacks, huh, Phil? (b) How many friends of yours
were killed or injured by terrorists? (c) How dare you lecture a basque
on terrorism? (d) Every single basque citizen (french or spanish basque,
doesn´t really matter, as you´d know if you´d done just
a little superficial research) has forgotten more about terrorism than
you have ever learned in your entire life. (e) And btw, what´s that
obsession with numbers? Ah, right 768 dead spaniards are nothing at all.
They´re only spaniards after all, aren´t they?"
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(a) Seattle was the intended target of the Al-Qaeda Millenium terror plot.
The plot was discovered when Ahmed Ressam was arrested while trying to
cross from Canada into the U.S. while driving a vehicle filled with enough
explosives to take down a large building.
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(b) My stepmother and her sister were riding on a bus from Jerusalem when
an Arab fanatic terrorist shot the bus driver, grabbed the steering wheel
and steered the bus over a cliff. My stepmother survived, barely, but
spent almost a year in hospital undergoing extensive operations. Her sister
was not so fortunate, and she died in the crash. She had never committed
any "crime" in her life, and she was targeted for death solely
because she was a Jew. Don't you EVER presume to lecture me about Terrorism,
Michel. I PERSONALLY have forgotten more about Terrorism than either you
or most Basques have ever known. It was MY family that suffered from Terrorism,
MY family that was targeted for death, MY family that saw its family member
Murdered. Not yours. Not yours. So do yourself a favor and shut up. You
haven't learned a thing about terrorism, except how to appease it.
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(c) I dare plenty. Tough rockos for you if you can't handle it.
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(d) Most Basque citizens have never suffered from Terrorism, if the death
toll from terrorism there is barely 20 people a year in an entire region.
My family personally knows more about Terrorism than any Basque you can
probably name. So, go take a hike.
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(e) My "obsession" with numbers, as you ignorantly refer to
it, is based on demonstrating that hysterical Europeans are eager to claim
they "know" about terrorism, when in fact their actual losses
to Terrorism are ridiculously low. One could just as easily look at the
fact of two murder victims a year in a small town, as opposed to one murder
victim the previous year, and write a hysterical headline proclaiming
"MURDER RATE DOUBLES IN ONE YEAR!". It's vital to know the numbers
in order to put things in perspective. And the perspective clearly demonstrates
that the so-called "suffering"of Basques from terrorism is overblown.
The Spanish lost 768 people in 20+ YEARS. We lost almost 3,000 people
in A SINGLE DAY.
Juanma Fernandez, Basque Country
***Dear Mr Karasick, I would ask you one
single thing: keep calm. Do not insult, please. You should consider the
point that you are discussing with people all over the world who are not
necessarily English native speakers. Please, be polite, your mother will
be proud.
****Phil Karasick wrote: „Basque C. (it's called "France"
or"Spain", by the way -- there is no separate "Basque Country")‰****:
I suggest you try these ((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_country))
((http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9013647&query=basque%20country&ct=)).
The first time I wrote here I stated „Spain‰, but, somehow
I knew you were going to say something about my „Basque C.‰.
„Has picado‰, we would say in Coward-language for „you
have taken the bait‰. Sorry, I was not aware that there was not
a separate Basque C. I´ll have to read more papers and history books,
or, even better: I‚ll ask you whenever I want to know anything about
my country (be it Spain or Basque C). Will you deny, Mr I-know-everything,
the Basque C being a cultural, sociological and geographical concept?
Basque C is not called Spain nor France. It is PART OF Spain and PART
OF France. See the difference?
**** Phil Karasick wrote: „Yes, I DO want you to "look for
the figure". And present "evidence", which you have not
done. Your claim that the U.S. has "murdered thousands of innocent
civilians" is utter Rubbish and Lies. Prove it, or else Accept being
called the Liar that you are.‰**** What kind of evidence do you
need? Do you want me to bring you some corps? I won‚t give you a
figure, I‚ll give you a name: José Couso. Rings a bell? He
was not Iraqi. He was a coward Spanish cameraman murdered at the Hotel
Palestine while filming. Did you know Hotel Palestine was full a journalists.
Your army didn‚t, and shot him dead. I kindly accept being called
a liar from you, it doesn‚t mean much to me. However, I wish you
were able to manage your speech in other terms, as I assumed someone writing
here was eager to supply arguments, not rubbish.
**** Phil Karasick wrote: „To begin with, there is an enormous difference
between Murder and Accidental Death. You, like a lot of other leftwing
nimrods, appear to have an enormous difficulty in understanding that difference.
If we didn't intend to kill someone, but it happens anyway, then that's
not Murder. It's an Unfortunate Accident∑‰**** Accidental
Death? Unfortunate Accident?? That reminds me of a film, „collateral
damage‰ could be? Dear friend, you are so arrogant! I hope you won‚t
see any of your friends or relatives being killed in an „unfortunate
accident‰. You don‚t see the Iraqis as people, otherwise I
just cannot explain your words. In Iraq, as everybody know, there have
been murders by American and by insurgents, and there have been also „accidental
deaths‰ by American and by insurgents. You are directly guilty of
some of them and responsible for all. You may accept it or not, that‚s
not my busyness.
**** Phil Karasick wrote: „You think you have somehow "suffered"
from terrorism? How many people have you lost in Basque terrorist incidents
- 768 or so? In THIRTY YEARS?!? That's like 25 people a year. B.F.D.(Go
figure out what that means, if you're too clueless to understand the intended
meaning). That's next to Nothing. That's fewer than probably die in a
month in Traffic Accidents. Oh yeah, you have really "suffered"
alright. By the way, here's where the figure of 768 ETA terror victims
comes from. Go look it up: http://www.ict.org.il/inter_ter/orgdet.cfm?orgid=8‰
**** Some accounts speak of more than 860 killed in 40 years. Is it trivial
for you? You show you speak nonsense. Please give it a third thought,
as it seems a second one is not enough for you. B.F.D. stands for Berkeley
Folk Dancers, doesn‚t it? You may agree not including Mr Aznar and
his PP mates between Spanish cowards, don‚t you? Please ask them
if „That‚s next to nothing‰.
By the way, I may be a left-winger, indeed I may be a nemrod, as many
in your country, left or right-wingers. Or is your country free from leftwing
nemrods? What‚s your problem with left-wingers? Don‚t you
understand that democracy is a balance between different ideas?
**** Phil Karasick wrote: „We're among the Greatest of Nations on
Earth - THAT'S who we are.**** Definitely the US are between the greatest
nations on Earth, I have to agree. Definitely that‚s not because
of you nor Mr Rumsfeld nor Mr Bush. Have I, at any point, spoken about
your country in a general way? (You have about mine). I have the maturity
you lack to acknowledge in one country you can find all kind of people:
clever and silly, handsome and ugly, left and right-winger, rich and poor.
And I have the maturity to differ one country‚s people from their
government. Do not mislead anyone: I do not criticise your country, which
I respect as I do with Iraq, France and China, I do criticise your president,
you and the others supporting him. And I do because you are: LIAR- Where
are the mass destruction weapons? Maybe in the Oval Office?; HYPOCRIT-
As you have shown, you don‚t mind Iraqis. Do you remember Mr Bush
encouraging countries to help him in Iraq (summer previous to the invasion)
promising them to share oil benefits? You don‚t? Just as I figured.
You don‚t but I do. You have manage your memory quite well, my friend.
Where were you when the Kurds were being accidentally killed by Mr Hussein?
You.. I ignore∑ Mr Rumsfeld∑ visiting the monster. What for?
Who knows∑ certainly not to serve him a poisoned apple; ASSASIN-
You are responsible for thousands of killings, call them accidental, collateral
or whatever you like. You knew there would be and you didn‚t mind,
you don‚t mind now either.
Great nations make mistakes.
**** Phil Karasick wrote: „Iraq will become a Democracy...‰****
As Afghanistan will, won‚t them? I hope you are right, I do not
enjoy people‚s deaths. But by the time being, both are quite far
from being a democracy. I only see blood and chaos.
**** Phil Karasick wrote: „You are a poussie nation, a nation of
craven gutless Cowards who bow to Terrorism. Maybe we should start treating
Spain as an Enemy nation, with all that entails‰**** Spain is not
your nor anyone‚s enemy nation. Your language is ∑ disgusting.
I suggest you come to Spain on holiday, that way you may know a bit more
what you speak about. You won‚t be treated as a terrorist, as meny
Spaniards on trip to the US have been in the last few months. Some Spaniards,
including Mr Coward-Zapatero, is not here to take US orders. I understand
this is hard to swallow for you, Great Nation. If you want to play war
games (quite far from home, by the way) we won‚t stand by you. You‚d
better give Aznar a rifle and send him to Bagdad. I ask you: KEEP YOUR
GUNS AT HOME.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Juanma Fernandez in Bilbao, Spain wrote:
"Phil Karasick, are you and Mr Bush thinking of coming to the Basque
Country to help us kill the bad guys?? I hope you aren't. You know, I'm
afraid you'll miss many shots."
|
No, Mr. Fernandez, I doubt very much that any Americans will be coming
to Spain or France or to the Basque Country to kill anyone or fight anyone,
for any reason.
|
People have been killing each other over there for 30 years or so, long
enough that people over there seem to think of it as something to be "managed"
or "tolerated". Therefore, there's no reason for us to pay any
attention to what's happening over there in Basque Country. It's not our
problem, and none of our concern.
|
More importantly, there aren't any U.S. strategic or national interests
involved or at risk. That's the only reason that the lives of young U.S.
servicemen should ever be put at risk, to secure and protect U.S. interests.
The conflict in Basque Country doesn't affect our interests whatsoever.
Therefore, there's no reason whatsoever to risk our troops' lives.
|
By all means, feel free to deal with your ongoing internal conflict over
there in whatever way you see fit. I'm sure that after all those years
of "managing" it, you'll be able to work it all out. Or not.
Whatever. Like I said, it's not "our" problem to deal with.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Michel Bastian wrote: "I´m not
quite sure if you´re posting this nonsense again and again to provoke
us of if you really believe it. If you do, I pity you. You´re just
one sheep in Dubbyah´s enormously large herd of completely uncritical,
unthinking neo-con americans."
|
I really do believe it, Michel. I'm sure that a few years down the road,
we shall see which of our visions for the Middle East has come to pass.
And I don't "need" your pity, so save it for someone who cares.
Feel free to continue spouting Michael Moore-esque blather accusing me
and other Americans of being "completely uncritical, unthinking neo-con"
'sheeple' merely because we see the same picture and same facts but manage
to arrive at a completely different conclusion than the one you "naturally"
expect me to "inevitably" arrive at.
|
Michel Bastian wrote: "Wrong spelling, Phil. It´s spelled "pussy".
You can´t even use obscenities right. How come a frenchman has to
teach you your own language AS WELL as your own constitutional system?".
|
Don't flatter yourself, Michel. I can use obscenities quite effectively
when I choose to. However, I generally choose not to, because I know full
well that knowing you, you'd respond all in a kerfuffle and whine that
I'm being "rude" to you or others. And you didn't "teach"
me anything about my own Constitutional system, because you don'tknow
quite as much about our system as you'd like us to believe. I am starting
to think that you're what is referred to as "A Legend In His Own
Mind", Michel.
|
Michel Bastian wrote: "You think the french are rude, arrogant and
uncooperative? You haven´t seen the spaniards yet when you insult
them."
|
I'm sure the Spanish are far worse, when they're insulted. However, my
impression is that the French are just naturally rude, arrogant and uncooperative
as a matter of course simply because "can" be, and being insulted
doesn't even enter into it.
Juanma Fernandez, Basque Country
Dear Mr Karasick, if I have to extract a general conclusion from what you write I would say that you are quite happy to live in Seattle, Washington, USA. No problem with that. Also you are extremely happy with your government and with the idea of America, which you seem to have invented. Capitalism has won and it‚s the nearest to a heaven you could imagine. I assume you are a devote believer, as well. That‚s paradise, isn‚t it? You also should be very happy to learn (sorry, I‚m sure you knew) that we Europeans are not so happy with our governments, we are used to fiercely criticising them and their decisions are always likely to find strong response from one side or another, as you‚ve been able to check with the French and Dutch noes to the EU constitution. We are always ready to express our don‚t-agrees with our government‚s performance. Definitely, Europe is not heaven nor paradise. We have numberless troubles from which we hardly know how to get out: what to do with unemployment, how to deal with immigrants, how to fight terrorism while keeping everyone‚s rights safe, narcotics, homophobic behaviours, macho dominance (believe it or not, on average, women still earn less money at similar jobs), etc. To all this I‚d add that our politicians are not as close to the people as we would wish, to say it smoothly. And I‚m aware that we Europeans have a great deal of things to learn from people all over the world, be it America, Africa, Asia or wherever. But, honestly, I don‚t know places where things are going much better than here. Certainly we are in trouble, it has always been like that in history, but here we are, embarked in a pioneer project like the EU which, you like it or not, you will acknowledge it being a singular venture in human history. But where are things better than here? In the USA? If so, congratulations. On the other hand, and taking into account what I know from the news, you don‚t seem to be dealing with those problems I have previously mentioned very much better. You may have some more GDP per capita, yes, and what more? For instance, is Guantanamo a good example of terrorism-fighting. Don‚t think so, man. Human rights and guarantees are not trivial pieces of ornament. You cannot just ignore them when you think you must and keep thinking you are on the right side. It doesn‚t work that way. If you break the rules you allow the rest to do the same. You lose moral authority. You may have had 3000 deaths in a single day. I haven‚t words to express what I feel about that. But that doesn‚t entitle you to break the rules. Nobody said it was going to be easy, nobody said life is fair. Suffering is to appear sooner or later. But law is the most important achievement in human history and must remain in any case unbreakable. No shortcuts are acceptable. **** Phil Karasick wrote: People have been killing each other over there for 30 years or so, long enough that people over there seem to think of it as something to be "managed" or "tolerated". Therefore, there's no reason for us to pay any attention to what's happening over there in Basque Country. **** Fight terrorism by legal means is not tolerance. It is what you have to do to keep moral authority. 20 years back, Spanish government tried find some shortcuts to end with terrorism. They thought they could defeat terrorism just by hiring gunmen to kill the terrorists. Innocent people died and it was proof to be a failure. Some officers are still in prison. We struggled to maintain guarantees and fight them legally. ETA terrorists have lost any moral authority they could have in the Franco times. Now it‚s two years since they last killed anyone. They are asphyxiated by police and political pressure. And when we defeat them we hope it‚ll be for good. You shouldn‚t be so arrogant to say we manage nor tolerate terrorism. You shouldn‚t underestimate the suffering of people living 24 hours a day between bodyguards, and I‚m not talking about presidents or ministers, I‚m talking of little town-hall councillors, journalists, professionals, entrepreneurs, teachers at university, normal people like you and me. Living menace for years is not a pleasurable matter. I tell you.**** Phil Karasick wrote: More importantly, there aren't any U.S. strategic or national interests involved or at risk. That's the only reason that the lives of young U.S. servicemen should ever be put at risk, to secure and protect U.S. interests. The conflict in Basque Country doesn't affect our interests whatsoever. Therefore, there's no reason whatsoever to risk our troops' lives.**** I fully subscribe that. It is as simple as that. Please, stop talking about democracy, justice, freedom in capital letters. Democracy subject to strategic or national interests is not democracy, is rubbish. Furthermore, don‚t call it interests, call it oil, call it money, call it shit. The USA are going to let down the whole world if you go on this way. If I were a father, which I‚m not yet, I wouldn‚t understand my young boy being killed by national or strategic interests.
Michel Bastian
> to Phil Karasick:
> (a) Seattle was the intended target of the Al-Qaeda Millenium terror
plot. The plot was discovered when Ahmed Ressam was arrested while trying
to cross from Canada into the U.S. while driving a vehicle filled with
enough explosives to take down a large building.
Well, if we counted "intended" terrorist acts, Europe would
probably have a few hundred more potential bombings than the US.
(b) My stepmother and her sister were riding on a bus from Jerusalem when
an Arab fanatic terrorist shot the bus driver, grabbed the steering wheel
and steered the bus over a cliff. My stepmother survived, barely, but
spent almost a year in hospital undergoing extensive operations. Her sister
was not so fortunate, and she died in the crash. She had never committed
any "crime" in her life, and she was targeted for death solely
because she was a Jew. Don't you EVER presume to lecture me about Terrorism,
Michel. I PERSONALLY have forgotten more about Terrorism than either you
or most Basques have ever known. It was MY family that suffered from Terrorism,
MY family that was targeted for death, MY family that saw its family member
Murdered. Not yours. Not yours. So do yourself a favor and shut up. You
haven't learned a thing about terrorism, except how to appease it.
Hmm, I´m sorry to hear that, and I´m sorry for your family.
I´ll take back the personal remark about your not knowing about
terrorism and I apologize for it.
It does explain a few things in your attitude and political opinions,
though.
However, I´m not a complete newbie to terrorism, either (had a friend
killed in the bombing attacks on the Tati stores in Paris back in the
eighties, and god knows how many friends of my family were involved in
Algeria, complete with terrorist attacks and all; they don´t speak
of it a lot, so I only positively know of three people who were "pied
noir", i.e. french colonists and had family members killed by the
FLN; also, the street next to the one where I live in Cologne was bombed
just a few months ago, though it appears that wasn´t a terrorist
act, just a "normal" crime), and you can bet that many basques
have had personal experiences similar to yours.
> (d) Most Basque citizens have never suffered from Terrorism, if the
death toll from terrorism there is barely 20 people a year in an entire
region. My family personally knows more about Terrorism than any Basque
you can probably name. So, go take a hike.
Well, your experience with terrorism still doesn´t give you the
right to insult the Basque people. They suffered from terrorism allright,
not just through people killed by bombs, but also through social pressure
(the famous "war tax" forced on many basques by ETA), through
family and friends being involved with terrorism etc. etc.
> (e) My "obsession" with numbers, as you ignorantly refer
to it, is based on demonstrating that hysterical Europeans are eager to
claim they "know" about terrorism, when in fact their actual
losses to Terrorism are ridiculously low. One could just as easily look
at the fact of two murder victims a year in a small town, as opposed to
one murder victim the previous year, and write a hysterical headline proclaiming
"MURDER RATE DOUBLES IN ONE YEAR!". It's vital to know the numbers
in order to put things in perspective. And the perspective clearly demonstrates
that the so-called "suffering"of Basques from terrorism is overblown.
The Spanish lost 768 people in 20+ YEARS. We lost almost 3,000 people
in A SINGLE DAY.
Well, if you insist on numbers, you have to take into account the time
element. Previous to 9/11, the US didn´t lose half as many people
to terrorism as Europe. Granted, 9/11 was a tragedy, but it was a single
attack, not a string of attacks throughout several decades.
And as for death tolls: they don´t tell the real story. Terrorism
is not only about killing people. It´s about killing people to frighten
them enough to get them to do what the terrorist wants. So the real damage
is not only through death, it´s through changes in social life,
fear spreading all around etc. The US and 9/11 are a classic example.
Al Quaida couldn´t have done a better job at influencing the american
(and european) way of life. Look at how global politics evolved since
then: the US changed their whole security system, passed the patriot act,
are now involved in an enormous quagmire in Iraq which also divided the
american people internally, and the partnership between the US and Europe
has almost completely disintegrated. Osama must be laughing his socks
off.
Michel Bastian
> Well, "you" might think that.
And "the Spanish people" might think that. Unfortunately, it
really doesn't matter what you think, or what the Spanish people think.
And the reason for that is, what really matters is what Al-Qaeda thinks.
And as far as Al-Qaeda is concerned, they won a great victory by setting
off terror-bombs in Madrid. They've already openly said so. They're already
crowing about how they sacrificed a mere 19 or so "martyrs"
and toppled a government that was friendly to the United States and hostile
to Al-Qaeda. As far as they're concerned, the Spanish elections validated
their belief that Terrorism is an extremely successful means toward achieving
their goal of establishing a worldwide Islamic state, country by country.
As far as they're concerned, the Spanish election proved to Al-Qaeda that
terrorism Works. Deny it all you want, play the semantics game, claim
that "the Spaniards were voting 'against' a government that lied
to them, they weren't voting 'in favor' of Al-Qaeda". They won't
believe you. Actions speak louder than words.
Exactly. So why should the spaniards let their vote be influenced by what
Al Quaeda thinks? Al Quaeda might crow about it, but what actually happened
is that Spain told Al Quaeda: we don´t give a damn what you think
or want, but we know we don´t want Aznar in power, not even to send
you a "message" or to avoid being bashed by the Bush administration.
In my book that´s courage, not cowardice, Phil. And incidentally:
don´t tell me Al Quaida wouldn´t have continued their terrorist
attacks just because the spaniards would´ve voted for Aznar.
> Oh, so now you claim that you can 'prove' that Bush lied? Why don't
you prove it? Or don't you have any evidence? Been taking lessons at the
Michael Moore School Of 'Crock'-U-Mentary Journalism?
I don´t know Phil, I´ve seen the Bush administration trying
to bully us into a war saying there WMD in Iraq, saying there were ties
between Saddam and Al Quaida and even saying Saddam had bought uranium
in Nigeria. All of these allegations were wrong. So if Bush wasn´t
lying he must have been blatantly incompetent. Same difference.
Michel Bastian
To Phil Karasick:
> I really do believe it, Michel. I'm sure that a few years down the
road, we shall see which of our visions for the Middle East has come to
pass. And I don't "need" your pity, so save it for someone who
cares. Feel free to continue spouting Michael Moore-esque blather accusing
me and other Americans of being "completely uncritical, unthinking
neo-con" 'sheeple' merely because we see the same picture and same
facts but manage to arrive at a completely different conclusion than the
one you "naturally" expect me to "inevitably" arrive
at.
Yup, you´re right in that respect, we see the same facts and the
same picture but somehow you manage to completely ignore the facts to
suit your view of the world. There are facts and there is opinion, Phil.
Opinions can vary, facts can´t.
> Don't flatter yourself, Michel. I can use obscenities quite effectively
when I choose to. However, I generally choose not to, because I know full
well that knowing you, you'd respond all in a kerfuffle and whine that
I'm being "rude" to you or others.
Wrong, Phil, no need to whine. I´d just respond with my usual line:
when you´re out of arguments, you start insulting people. I don´t
mind. It´s part of the debate. However a. spewing insults generally
doesn´t do your credibility any good, and b. don´t be surprised
when I retaliate, Phil.
> And you didn't "teach" me anything about my own Constitutional
system, because you don'tknow quite as much about our system as you'd
like us to believe.
I might not be a trained american constitutional lawyer, Phil, but when
somebody tries to tell me congress can veto supreme court rulings, I´m
pretty sure he doesn´t know the first thing about the constitution.
> I am starting to think that you're what is referred to as "A
Legend In His Own Mind", Michel.
Inferiority complexes again, Phil?
> I'm sure the Spanish are far worse, when they're insulted. However,
my impression is that the French are just naturally rude, arrogant and
uncooperative as a matter of course simply because "can" be,
and being insulted doesn't even enter into it.
Sorry, I forgot I was talking to the king of prejudice.
Juanma Fernandez, Basque Country
Some questions for Mr Karasick:
*** Are the US free from racism?
*** How long have you Americans been tolerating/managing racial abuses?
*** The existance of racial abuses in the US does mean that American people
tolerate it, doesnt it?
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Poll shows slump in trust between French, Americans
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050617/ts_nm/france_usa_opinion_dc_3
Mike, London
Phil Karasick wanted proof of the Christian
ethic of the Nazis:
Here's the first link I came to when I googled:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm
Note the words:
"One must not forget that Germany represented the most Christianized
country in the world in the 1930s and 40s. Nazi Christian soldiers died
as Protestants and Catholics and their grave markers testified to their
religion."
_
Squirm your way out of that.
Mike, London
To Phil again:
Materialism in philosophy means a belief that only the material world
exists. Marx famously called religion 'the opiate of the masses' and held
that belief in a utopian world beyond this makes people focus on that
world instead of this one, and this leaves them open to exploitation.
For instance, the ethics of Jesus insist on meakness and forbearence-
a perfect mentality for being taken advantage of. This is what Marx said,
by the way, I don't necessarily agree. I'm just being a pedant.
I agree when you say:
Communism itself is the most brutal of oppressors. Communism sees religion
as a rival for the hearts, minds and affections of the people.
But I'm talking about the pure philosophy of it, not the horrific accidents
that have generally occurred because of dictatorships seem to always end
up arrising from it. Marx was just too generous about the goodness in
people.
{
Sorry if I bored anyone.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Juanma Fernandez in "Basque Country"
Spain wrote: "You should consider the point that you are discussing
with people all over the world who are not necessarily English native
speakers. Please, be polite, your mother will be proud."
|
I do realize that I am discussing issues with people all over the world
for whom English is not necessarily their native language. That is why
I have not ridiculed and am not ridiculing your language skills. What
I am ridiculing and scorning are your country and its policies.
|
Juanma Fernandez in "Basque Country" Spain wrote: "Sorry,
I was not aware that there was not a separate Basque Country. I´ll
have to read more papers and history books, or, even better: I'll ask
you whenever I want to know anything about my country (be it Spain or
Basque Country)."
|
That's a good idea. That way, I can refer you to the U.N. roster of countries
and politely note that there is no separate nation listed as being "Basque
Country". And the references I have seen to "Basque Country"
have followed up the words "Basque Country" with the word "Spain".
This is the reason why the guide to the Basques lists the following: "The
Basque Country or Euskal Herria (land of the basque language), as the
three million Basques call their nation straddles the French-Spanish border
along the western Pyrenees". Please note that it states that the
Basque "country" straddles the French-Spanish Border. This is
because the Basque-inhabited lands are not actually a "country"
of their own, which is why they don't have their own, official national
border.
|
Here are some sources for you to study:
|
http://www.see.ed.ac.uk/~ja/bc.html
http://www.basquecountry-tourism.com/somos.php
BASQUE COUNTRY, by All About SPAIN
http://www.red2000.com/spain/region/r-vasc.html
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Juanma Fernandez in "Basque Country",
Spain wrote: "Please, be polite, your mother will be proud".
|
My mother passed away in 1989. She emigrated from Canada to the USA in
1952 and, other than occasional visits to see family members in Canada,
she never looked back. And she had little to no interest in visiting Europe,
and never had anything complimentary to say about Europe or Europeans.
To her, America was the nation that liberated horrific places like Dachau
and Buchenwald. Europe was the continent that had persecuted Jews for
hundreds of years, persecution that culminated in certain Europeans making
lampshades out of the skin of her (and my)murdered relatives.
|
Juanma Fernandez wrote: "Will you deny, Mr I-know-everything, the
Basque C being a cultural, sociological and geographical concept? Basque
C is not called Spain nor France. It is PART OF Spain and PART OF France.
See the difference?".
|
I never claimed that it wasn't a cultural and sociological concept. It's
only a "geographical" concept, though, in the sense that people
having Basque backgrounds inhabit both France and Spain. But it's still
not a separate "country", except in peoples'imaginations, because
it has no national borders or boundaries. It's no different than Indian
tribes that straddle the U.S.-Canada border. They have a common heritage
and culture. But they're citizens of either the U.S.or Canada. They're
not recognized as a separate "country".
|
Juanma Fernandez wrote: "I won't give you a figure, I'll give you
a name: José Couso. Rings a bell? He was not Iraqi. He was a coward
Spanish cameraman murdered at the Hotel Palestine while filming. Did you
know Hotel Palestine was full a journalists. Your army didn't, and shot
him dead."
|
Yes, I know who he was. And he wasn't "murdered", either. It
was a tragic accident, and it was unfortunate, but OH WELL. Sad things
happen in wartime. |
And incidentally, yes, the U.S. military knew that the Hotel Palestine
had journalists -- on the LOWER floors. Did YOU know that terrorist insurgents
were occupying some of the UPPER floors? Did you know that they were FIRING
ON American forces from the UPPER floors?
|
Has it ever occurred to you that from the ground, from inside a vehicle
that's being attacked, a two-man team looking down on U.S. forces from
a balcony looks an awful lot like an enemy spotter-team directing gunfire
upon U.S. troops?
|
Did YOU know that a separate investigation by the Committee to Protect
Journalists, a watchdog group, had concluded that the attack, while "avoidable",
was "not deliberate"? I didn't think so.
Phil Karasick, Seattle, Washington, USA
Juanma Fernandez wrote: "I hope you won't
see any of your friends or relatives being killed in an 'unfortunate accident'".
|
I hope not, too. But if any of them are tragically injured or killed in
Iraq, I'll certainly grieve and/or mourn for them. But I will not "blame"
anyone, and especially not my own government, for their injury or death.
That's because I accept and understand, as others should also understand
and accept, that such things are a tragic but inevitable occurrence in
wartime. They can't be prevented 100% of the time, and it isn't realistic
to think that they ever can be.
|
Juanma Fernandez wrote: "You don't see the Iraqis as people, otherwise
I just cannot explain your words." On the contrary, I see the Iraqis
as people who have suffered long and deeply under the rule of a murderous
dictator and who deserve our Liberation of them from Saddam Hussein. It's
precisely because they suffered so long and so cruelly under a tyrant
that our Liberation of them and their country is so urgently needed.
|
Juanma Fernandez wrote: "In Iraq, as everybody know, there have been
murders by American and by insurgents, and there have been also 'accidental
deaths' by American and by insurgents. You are directly guilty of some
of them and responsible for all."
|
Rubbish and Lies, as usual. The number of 'murders' by Americans is so
small as to be insignificant. On the other hand, the number of Iraqis
Murdered by the Terrorists is in the thousands. Perhaps you have noticed
the numerous news stories of freedom-loving Iraqis being found murdered
by the terrorists, beheaded or shot in the head, their hands bound behind
their backs. We are neither "guilty" nor "responsible"
for any of them. If it had been left up to you, Iraqis would still be
being Murdered by Saddam Hussein's regime, something that does not appear
to trouble you at all. Where was your "concern for humanity"
when Iraqis were being mass-murdered by Saddam's regime and thrown into
mass graves?
|
Juanma Fernandez wrote: "Some accounts speak of more than 860 killed
in 40 years. Is it trivial for you?"
|
Yup, it is. The toll of 860 people is individually tragic, but statistically
it is insignificant. 860 people over 40 years? That's 21 people a year,
or less than 2 people per month. That's fewer than the number on average
that die in traffic accidents.
Mike, London
To Phil Karasick:
I've just finished re-reading George Orwell's masterpiece '1984', and
I would heartily recommend it to you, not just because it is a fantastic
book, but because I was often involuntarily reminded of you as I read
it. In it, the populace are enslaved to state defined ideology of which
the main components are defined as:
revisionism/ wilful forgetfulness of history, holding two contradictory
opinions simultaneously and narrowly, numbness to a sense of hypocrisy,
exceptionalism, wilfully ignoring any information contradictory to the
dominant ideology, gloating triumphalism over information conducive to
the dominant ideology, flexible logic, the focus on details whilst ignoring
the bigger picture, blind agreement with government, nationalism, war
and the associated rhetoric of hate-figures to galvanising nationalism,
an aggressive disinterest in and loathing of the ideas contained in the
world beyond the nation, national identity as the key to personal identity,
and most importantly: fear and hatred.
Although it is too expansive and boring to trawl through your posts and
offer examples, I believe you have by degrees shown yourself guilty of
all of these.
The thing is: for such a 'patriot' (although I would use the word 'nationalist'),
you are damaging what your country ostensibly stands for. 1984 is devoted
largely to explaining that the components I have just mentioned are qualities
required in the preferred citizen of a totalitarian state- and at least
one in which Truth (as you painfully have taken to spelling with a capital
T) is defined as whatever is considered expedient to the national ideology.
The views you express, and the language you use to express them, are in
essence dangerously in opposition to the ideals of freedom and democracy.
The spelling of the word 'truth' with a capital letter is the most simple,
nutshell example to focus on here, as it presupposes the concept that
truth can not only be wholly defined by an agent, but is singular. The
ideal of the modern democratic state is that the only real Truth that
exists is scientific: not defined by an agent and objectively verifiable-
otherwise you flirt with tyranny (see Locke). If 'Truth' becomes singular
and is defined by individuals, the essential discursive nature of democracy,
and by some extension freedom, ceases.
I am not saying you have no right to strong opinions, but I am saying
you should not hate all other opinions out of hand simply because they
are not yours. Or, more accurately, you should not automatically hate
opinions for the reason that they do not emanate from within your own
idiom.
So what's my point? In an effort to tie this to the debate at hand, rather
than just being another person outraged by Phil who is having a rant,
I would say this: I would not have bothered to write this, as people with
extreme and highly vociferous views will always exist. However, there
seem to be some other posts from your countrymen which seem to agree with
you. I, and no doubt the great majority of those visiting this site, find
this a highly disturbing path that elements of the USA seem to be following-
and one which the government of America seems to be encouraging them along.
I feel patriotic duty is to constructively criticise what is wrong with
your country, not to do no more then to simply agree with it. That is
the difference between patriotism and nationalism; a stable attitude and
a dangerous one.
The state and the individual are separate in a democracy. You are not
America- it is the place where you live.
Ross Gurung, France
In filigree it makes sense that this drug
addict Bill Basher as well as Spook is a sort of stinker, as if kicked
out of a Lunatic Asylum, must be upright dispatched into the depths of
oblivion.
I
For this fetid and coercive liar called as Phil Karasick, no doubt one
of those Spin Doctors duly paid by his Master, the first thing I do is
to flush the toilet. All this allegory is, in order to put a stop to his
so-called blockbuster of hypocrisy so that he could no more build his
Castle in the air of Human Wreck. Splash! Here is the onomatopoeia to
send him straight into the gutter. Forewarned is forearmed. Sometimes,
I ask myself whether this kind of scavenger could really exist or was
it the imaginative Scarecrow fabricated by the Editor TGA to permit us
to fuel him by our different remarks and contributions!
I
Are you game? I figure it is not worth a candle. You would hit a snag.
We do not know yet where to set about it. In a pinch, it was all a big
con with salient ideas and issues in a bid to promote the complacency
as to why Israelis are involved over there to make wars until the perks
would peter out.
I
We have been hearing it since we took birth in the world of ours. At odd
times we thought as Jews suffered so much in the past, they would remember
the same, they would be more indulgent towards their foes and at least
would try to understand the ups and downs and denigrations of the opposite
sides, as they are far better educated compared with them. Thus, they
would lend a willing ear. If Peace comes forth, it is always between the
two opposite ends. However, believe me buggers as Karasick who are trained
for such situations would try to poke their noses everywhere they could
like leeches in search of the fresh blood. Things could take U-turn when
these kinds of warmongers and scavengers would defy our common sense by
trying to impose upon us their ready made and already tried on mass brain
storming propagandas, slogans and dogmas as all crypto-fascists know the
method by heart. He has had very good instructors, such as Edgar Hoover
and McCarthy; they are pushing up the daisies, though.
I
When all is said and done, it is obvious that Condi' is doing a great
job. She has been so far quite smart in her stroke of Diplomacy, utilizing
the tremendous potential that lies dormant within us all, thus shattering
deep-set patterns of misunderstandings of both ends (Sharon and Abbas).
I
The point at issue would have great sprawling and everlasting consequences
in the future being of all the Middle East. Further there are rich pickings
as well. Now nobody should try to stop time if not he or she would perish
as Faust did when he wanted to see the Beauty of Nature unchanged and
permanent.
I
Indeed, Condi' is not a rookie and the milestones of success are not very
far off. I am a stalwart supporter. I only hope she would not deceive
us. BUCK UP! ENCORE!!
antti vainio, finland
Phil Karaseck wrote:In that case, it's interesting
and highly enlightening that you choose to condemn our noble and valiant
soldiers who are bringing democracy to a nation long enslaved under a
dictatorship, but you don't seem to offer any condemnation for the jihadis
who (unlike U.S.troops) deliberately target and go out of their way to
murder civilians. Says a lot about you, it does.
Some of your soldiers are certainly noble and valiant, some less so. Their
cause is muddled. I have no clue where you get your idea that I like jihadists
because I've never written so. I think they are exactly as sick as your
kind of hatemongers
charlie gordon, california
Phil Karasick, don't you have anything better to do???
Ben, United States of America
First of all nobody has died at Guantanomo.
There is very weak evidence of torture or abuse there. The only truly
proven torture scandal, Abu Ghraib, led to harsh court martials, some
already carried out, some still pending.
As for US efforts to bring democracy to parts of the globe.
9/11 resulted in the deaths of 3,000 American civilians. It caused an
outpouring of sympathy and nationalism from the American people, and it
also caused an outpouring of rage. The Japanese once called America "The
Sleeping Giant." Bin Laden awoke it.
The Bush Doctrine recognizes the problem we face does not just come from
a confederation of Muhajideen veterans who have turned their eyes away
from the Soviet Union and towards the United States, but in the broader
Middle East as a whole. What I dub The Jihad Factory. This system of political
repression, economic desperation, and societal disconnectedness leads
to an outporing of warriors by the battalion who have learned that American
and Israel are the cause of all their problems, and the way to make their
lives better is through the destruction of America and Israel.
The Bush Doctrine says that the best way to combat this Jihad Factory
is through strategic democratization of the region. On September 11th,
2001, there were three national governments all the way from Morocco to
Pakistan that were openly hostile to the United States. Afghanistan, Iraq,
and Iran. Two have been toppled, one is surrounded on all sides by US
military forces.
Make no mistake, the United States has lost it's patience with the Middle
East status quo. We look at the situation and realize the only way we
are going to win this war we are fighting is through the destruction of
the situation that has persisted in the Middle East for decades. The system
that gave birth to Gabdel Nasser, to Ayatollah Khomeini, to Osama Bin
Laden.
We cannot defeat the Jihadists without defeating the Jihad factory.
John Froelich, Pennsylvania
There seems to be a lack of some perspective
in placing Bush on the American political spectrum. Maybe this will help.
In 2002, the Adminstration interviened in 19 Primary elections for Senator,
Governor or Representative, of which, in every single case, they supported
a moderate against someone more conservative. This was continued with
Schwarzenegger vs McClintock in the California Recall, and with 9 more
primaries this year. I saw, first-hand, the bruising Pennsylvania Primary,
in which Bush spoke several times and pulled strings for Specter against
the conservative Toomey. Out of these cases, 26
of the 29 Bush-backed people won their offices. With Bush reenforcing
the moderate wing across the board, he had a wider coalition to win with,
despite some people's
mistakes in viewing him as a right-wing figure.
One thing to remember about U.S. elections is that all officeholders owe
their party nominations an their elections directly to the voters alone.
This is rather different from some other systems.
Erik, Norway
First, to miss Susan, the liberal Democrat
from Philadelphia:
Jewish symbols and Jews were not banned on the Kristallnacht commemorations
(sp?). The truth is that a handful (10-12, out of the more than 1,500
Jews in the country) of Jewish extremists wanted to make hateful speeches
against Palestinians, and thus they were banned. This is the TRUE story.
BTW, I think that if people in the U.S. are to (falsely) call a continent
of 800 million people and 50 countries anti-semitic, then I think people
in Europe can call people in the U.S. anti-Muslim. Why? Well, it's due
to the proposed stigmatising of Muslims in the country, by saying that
all Muslims should have a special ID designed only for them, just like
the Jews got the Magen David as a special ID under Nazi Germany. Besides,
lot of Muslims are actually Semites. If they're Arab, they're Semitic!
Thus, anti-Arab people are anti-Semitic!
I on't really believe there are that many differences between Europe and
the U.S. I think there are more likenesses than differences.
Now, to some thoughts about the U.S.:
*Some would say that people in the U.S. worship politicians more than
politics, and perhaps there is some truth to this. There also seems to
be more of an interest in personal scandals concerning politicians and
other prominent people in the U.S., than there is among most Europeans.
I suppose that few people also don't quite understand what the deal was
about the 2000 elections and the role the Supreme Court played in electing
(or appointing?) mr. George Walker Bush.
*I think that there is some hypocrisy in the way a lot of people in the
U.S. deal with sex and nudity. The U.S. has the world's largest porn industry
and the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the West, but squirms at the
sight of half a (black) breast at Super Bowl. Puritans clash with Girls
Gone Wild, just like guns clash with "Thou shalt not kill".
The views of people there can sometimes seem conflicting.
*U.S. foreign policy is perhaps an entire chapter to itself, but I will
not get on and on about it...at least not too much. I believe the time
following 9/11 set the U.S., and European countries, further apart. Initially,
there was an outpour from us in the Old World, but then your president
seemed to be coercing or even threatening other nations to follow his
own causes. "You are either with us, or with the terrorists".
It didn't leave much room for differing opinions, now did it? It was like
a stab in our hearts. Yes, I've heard the same from across the Pond. I
understand the emotions, but it was not brutal abandonment on our part.
Iraq was a hot potato, on both sides of the Pond, but on this side most
countries decided not to act on the catastrophically erroneous (un)intelligence
presented.
*People in Europe still watch Hollywood films, U.S. produced TV series
and Disney cartoons, listen to U.S. music, wear Levi's jeans, drink Coca
Cola, eat at McDonald's, admire/fall in love with/want to be like Hollywood
actors/actresses, U.S. musicians etc., and they drive around in Ford's
and love old Cadillac's. Europeans do - just as much as always, or even
more - buy U.S. products, and they are still smittened by cetain aspects
of the U.S. Tempted, if you will. The intense love affair between the
U.S. and European countries is still burning, even though it's not burning
as bright as it used to. Perhaps both sides have become more disillusioned,
despite the fact that they're (on both sides) still in a sense taken in
with what the other has to offer. The rose colour may have disappeared
from the glasses, but the glasses are still on.
undisclosed
There is definitely a difference in values and it derives from a simple difference of circumstance: one side is controlled by Colonists while the other side is held by Aboriginals. But deep down, we still love you.
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